New busbar for split-load consumer unit converted to all RCBO

[LostDutch]

THE ONLY REASON we start discussing competency in this forum is when we see words or photos which indicate there is reason for doubt.

As a 'non qualified' member I see what you have done so far and start shrinking with fear, fear for your safety, fear for the safety of those who follow you and fear for those living in the property.

IF you are competent to work in consumer units you would not have to ask such questions (words part of my first paragraph) yes this is a DIY advice site and if you read a couple of dozen threads you will see we offer lots and lots of advice on how to do things properly and safely. When we start getting questions such as yours, we offer advice on how to resolve your situation properly and safely and indeed that is what has already happened but you chose to criticise the correct advice.

The only advice that isn't helping and that I'll criticize is that I should hire someone else to do it.

You have posted pictures of a very reasonable consumer unit installation before you started botching, seeing that my first reaction would have been to send a private message to ask for your address as I have random lengths of suitable bussbar and would have simply popped what you required in the post. Seeing your botch (photos part of my first paragraph) my instant reaction is simple; No way am I going to aid and abet such incompetence.
Doing this sort of work is for skilled people and the reason we as a nation have introduced restrictions on those permitted to do this work is due entirely the the very shoddy work produced by so many and the resulting problem, hazards and fires etcetera.

I would really have appreciated your help! Really, the only reason it looked like this is because I was doing a quick test before temporarily rounding off. It was 10PM and I needed to eat and go to sleep. I could not start working on it earlier since my partner needed the power to be on.

So where does this leave us?
Well it's extremely simple, DIYers come on here asking for advice and we assess the situation and capabilities and accordingly offer our best advice. When we see those same DIYers then complaining about not being allowed to do some thing and slagging off the competent members for offering the correct advice we tend to use naughty words in our heads about them.

We are not interested in the botches done in other countries or the way botchers are allowed to carry on their dangerous practices.

This is simply rude ethnocentrism and quite hurtful.

We are not interested

A type of us vs them language that I'm happy not to hear often, like seriously what the hell

Just because you're used to certain regulations does not mean that they're the only right ones. I am also not saying that the Dutch ones are the right ones, I'm only trying to argue a reasonable middle that if there are other developed Western European countries where things work in certain ways, let's accept that it might be reasonable.

I'm certainly not going to start listing the multiple errors you have made so far. There is no excuse, not even 'I haven't finished the job'.

Apologies the the other participants of this thread If I've overstepped the mark, let me know and I'll happily remove.

Well you've been very rude and unhelpful. On purpose, like you said. If you had pointed out specific things that I should do differently I would definitely have followed your advice. If you'd been willing to point out the multiple errors I would have been interested. Knowing a thing or two about teaching, advising, and feedback, you've followed none of the best practices just tried to talk me down.

 

[bernardgreen]

The only advice that isn't helping and that I'll criticize is that I should hire someone else to do it.

That really is the best advice that you can be given, but it is obvious you will ignore it as it is not the advice you want to be given.

 

[LostDutch]

In your "work in progress" photo the main switch is on. You have said that you have no means of isolating the incoming supply to the CU, so this whole mess must be live.

Yes, it wasn't ideal but it needed to be as I had run out of time and batteries for my lights. I have no means of isolating the mains to the CU, but the main isolator switch is working perfectly fine. But what's the issue of an exposed live busbar if nobody is coming near it?

You can't possibly get the cover on the CU with the devices in those positions.

Correct, but putting the devices in the right positions comprimised the contact beteen the fingers of the busbar and the connectors of the circuit breakers as the connector on the BG RCBO isn't located at the same depth as the Hager ones. Therefore, it's impossible to install the breakers neat and level when they're lightly screwed onto the busbar. However, since comprimised contact is dangerous, and temporarily being unable to get the cover on isn't (with the right pre-cautions), I went with the latter. Makes sense right?

You have an exposed busbar.

Well yes, but until I find a busbar that fits the cover doesn't fit on it. I understand that in the UK this is probably against guidelines or regulations, but it's not dangerous if nothing and no-one comes near it. But as long as I understand the danger it's my risk to take.

You have a neutral conductor with an exposed core.

I know it's bad but this was already the case before I started work on the CU. In any case, an RCBO mitigates the risk a bit and it was on the list of tasks that still needed to be done.

At least one device that you have installed is not intended for use in that CU.

Definitely the BG RCBO, unless there are two. The solar panels require a type B RCBO, which is the large Hager one on the left. Is there an issue with installing this?

For some reason you can't understand why we don't believe that you are competent to do this work.

Because you didn't see the finished result! I didn't ask for any opinions on this in the first place since I'm also receiving guidance from a knowledgeable person from abroad. They're in a much better position to evaluate whether I can do this safely. I am from a country where doing this work yourself is perfectly acceptable. If you think that all of these DIYers doing this work are insane, that is your right but it's not very productive. Where is the risk when you only come near it when everything is isolated and you stay away from the incoming supply? All that's required is an understanding of the rating and capacity of the components components, which I have.

 

[LostDutch]

That really is the best advice that you can be given,

Look, I understand it's well intended but it's unsollicited advice.

but it is obvious you will ignore it as it is not the advice you want to be given.

It's quite clear from my original post that I was asking for ideas on how to fix it myself. I don't want to be given this advice because it's entirely different from the advice I was asking for. I am going to do it myself anyway, unless presented with reasons I wasn't aware of yet.

 

[SUNRAY]

The only advice that isn't helping and that I'll criticize is that I should hire someone else to do it.

As I wrote earlier, we assess each situation as it arises on its own merits (I believe most 'advisors' on here have become very good at it) and offer the best advice we can to suit.
If, in our opinion, the best advice is to get a competent person involved that that is what we offer.
If, in our opinion, the best advice is to talk someone through a problem that is what we offer
In this case, MY opinion is the best advice is to find a competent person who knows what they're doing and is qualified to issue the required paperwork.

I would really have appreciated your help! Really, the only reason it looked like this is because I was doing a quick test before temporarily rounding off. It was 10PM and I needed to eat and go to sleep. I could not start working on it earlier since my partner needed the power to be on.

This is simply rude ethnocentrism

Quite the contrary, until you explained that there is no restriction on workmanship in consumer units in other countries my preconceptions would have been completely opposite to how you describe it, see next comment.

and quite hurtful.


A type of us vs them language that I'm happy not to hear often, like seriously what the hell

Certainly not, although born and lived all my life in Kent I carry a Dutch Surname as my Father settled here after the war, I see that as a good reason to not have a them and us opinion. Please don't insult me with such errors.

Just because you're used to certain regulations does not mean that they're the only right ones. I am also not saying that the Dutch ones are the right ones, I'm only trying to argue a reasonable middle that if there are other developed Western European countries where things work in certain ways, let's accept that it might be reasonable.

So be it.
However members on here take the advice we offer very seriously and actually research when required,
So having just spoken to a colleague/friend in Kerkelanden who is conversant with wiring regulations there (oh yes a fully qualified electrician there and UK, at least until I retired just before lockdown) I feel your interpretation of the rules may at odds with his.

Well you've been very rude and unhelpful. On purpose, like you said. If you had pointed out specific things that I should do differently I would definitely have followed your advice. If you'd been willing to point out the multiple errors I would have been interested. Knowing a thing or two about teaching, advising, and feedback, you've followed none of the best practices just tried to talk me down.

Having seen your early responses to those offering advice, there is no way I'll be making offers, on you past form it seems you would have criticised me for not knowing what I'm suggesting.

 

[SUNRAY]

... putting the devices in the right positions comprimised the contact beteen the fingers of the busbar and the connectors of the circuit breakers as the connector on the BG RCBO isn't located at the same depth as the Hager ones. Therefore, it's impossible to install the breakers neat and level when they're lightly screwed onto the busbar.

So call me stupid for asking if you like but please tell me why you are attempting to fit a device that doesn't fit.

However, since comprimised contact is dangerous, and temporarily being unable to get the cover on isn't (with the right pre-cautions), I went with the latter. Makes sense right?

No it doesn't make any sense at all, it's a botch plain and simple and completely unnecessary.

 

[bernardgreen]

However, since comprimised contact is dangerous, and temporarily being unable to get the cover on isn't (with the right pre-cautions), I went with the latter. Makes sense right?

As you rightly say a compromised contact is dangerous. A compromised contact can create arcing and heat.

A compromised contact between the main switch and the bus bar could create enough heat to cause damage to the main switch. That damage could result in it being impossible to turn the main switch OFF and ( as you say ) there is no isolator to remove power from the consumer unit.

Even if there was an isolator the consumer unit could be well alight before someone notices the smoke and opens the isolator.

 

[pcaouolte]

Yes, it wasn't ideal

Something of an understatement.

I have no means of isolating the mains to the CU, but the main isolator switch is working perfectly fine. But what's the issue of an exposed live busbar if nobody is coming near it?

Are you the only person with access to this property?

Correct, but putting the devices in the right positions comprimised the contact beteen the fingers of the busbar and the connectors of the circuit breakers as the connector on the BG RCBO isn't located at the same depth as the Hager ones. Therefore, it's impossible to install the breakers neat and level when they're lightly screwed onto the busbar. However, since comprimised contact is dangerous, and temporarily being unable to get the cover on isn't (with the right pre-cautions), I went with the latter. Makes sense right?

No. It doesn't make any sense to install a device into a CU which isn't designed to go into that CU and which doesn't fit.

Definitely the BG RCBO, unless there are two. The solar panels require a type B RCBO, which is the large Hager one on the left. Is there an issue with installing this?

Agreed definitely the BG device. I don't know if the other devices that you have fitted are approved for use in this CU or not. Please don't tell us that you have also installed solar panels yourself?

Because you didn't see the finished result!

Is there a finished result?

I didn't ask for any opinions on this in the first place since I'm also receiving guidance from a knowledgeable person from abroad. They're in a much better position to evaluate whether I can do this safely. I am from a country where doing this work yourself is perfectly acceptable.

You don't like the opinions that you are getting, that doesn't make those opinions wrong. You are doing this work in a country which requires the work to be done by a competent person, we are simply suggesting that you find a competent person. The fact that you are from another country doesn't avoid the requirement to do the work safely in this country.

If you think that all of these DIYers doing this work are insane, that is your right but it's not very productive. Where is the risk when you only come near it when everything is isolated and you stay away from the incoming supply? All that's required is an understanding of the rating and capacity of the components components, which I have.

I am well aware that some DIYers are capable working within a CU competently. I don't believe that you have enough understanding of the devices that you are fitting or the requirements of achieving a safe installation. If you had that understanding you would not have started the work until you had acquired all of the necessary parts to finish the job safely and your work in progress wouldn't look like that.

 

[LostDutch]

Something of an understatement.

Are you the only person with access to this property?

70% of the world uses "not so ideal installations" permanently. When I lived in India we had water leaking from our CU in our rental house. Of course it needs to be covered, but you're exaggerating that leaving it uncovered while I source a busbar is super dangerous. Keep in mind that I am not an electrician and don't do this stuff daily. It makes sense that there are much stricter rules for professionals as they're exposed to potential risks every day when working with electricity.

I did not see any opportunities or an urgent need to revert back to how it was. It's only me and my partner, no kids. No pets that can reach it. And my partner is not an idiot. Unlike me, I have learned.

No. It doesn't make any sense to install a device into a CU which isn't designed to go into that CU and which doesn't fit.

What's the danger? The busbar I used is overspecced if anything, which is why it doesn't fit into the brackets. Surface for conduction is the same size.

Agreed definitely the BG device. I don't know if the other devices that you have fitted are approved for use in this CU or not. Please don't tell us that you have also installed solar panels yourself?

I certainly did! But since I did not feel familiar enough with all the regulations surrounding the types of isolators I'd need I used a webshop that compiled a kit for me which, given the right installation method, would adhere to the code. It was an installation on our garden workshop which cost £1700 in total. The quotes I got for the job from MCS installers were all around £5000 which would not have been viable.

Is there a finished result?

Not yet. I didn't want to order a bunch of busbars in order to measure them and if one fits: calculate whether the maximum safe current capacity is suitable. I was hoping my question here would have contrinuted to a solution, but not so much.

You don't like the opinions that you are getting, that doesn't make those opinions wrong. You are doing this work in a country which requires the work to be done by a competent person, we are simply suggesting that you find a competent person. The fact that you are from another country doesn't avoid the requirement to do the work safely in this country.

You're right, opinions aren't subject to being correct or incorrect. But seeing as I was immediately perceived as a stubborn incompetent person who wasn't going to hire someone to do this anyway, the only consequence of persistantly suggesting that I hire someone else is that any opportunity to improve my competency with knowledge is wasted.

Since we want to switch to an induction cooker I did look at whether the cables in the radial cooker circuit were specced high enough to switch out the 32A breaker for a higher one. It wasn't easy to identify the mm2 of the cable since it's an old stranded cable using imperial standards and the individual strands were not as precisely machined, I measured with my caliper. But in the end it turned out that it would be suitable for 35A max, so I went for a safe margin of error and kept it as is. We'll need to wire a new cable for this. Although, who knows.. I'm entirely incompetent after all so I might as well skip these attempts at taking precautions

I am well aware that some DIYers are capable working within a CU competently. I don't believe that you have enough understanding of the devices that you are fitting or the requirements of achieving a safe installation. If you had that understanding you would not have started the work until you had acquired all of the necessary parts to finish the job safely and your work in progress wouldn't look like that.

This system with busbars is less common where I'm from. There is much more proprietary stuff going on here than back home. I had few opportunities to switch off the main isolator switch so I didn't measure the busbar but instead bought one that was specced high enough. The dimensions couldn't be found anywhere online for any flat busbars, so assuming that the size would be standardized seems like a forgivable mistake to me.

In any case, I'll try to finish the job myself then. I do want to install an entirely new CU once Octopus has fixed the main fuse and installed an isolator. The current consumer unit is like swiss cheese with holes drilled into it at several spots. Might post a photo when I have finished fitting a better busbar and after organizing the wiring. And that will then need to do for a while until I can fit a new CU.

 

[LostDutch]

As you rightly say a compromised contact is dangerous. A compromised contact can create arcing and heat.

A compromised contact between the main switch and the bus bar could create enough heat to cause damage to the main switch. That damage could result in it being impossible to turn the main switch OFF and ( as you say ) there is no isolator to remove power from the consumer unit.

Even if there was an isolator the consumer unit could be well alight before someone notices the smoke and opens the isolator.

It's unlikely that a load that's high enough for this would occur anytime soon in this house. Nonetheless, a smoke detector has already been ordered for inside the CU cabinet.

But this is exactly the reason why I left everything crooked but appropriately tightened onto the busbar. Closing it up and covering the busbar would require me to prioritize the positioning of the RCBOs over the contact with the busbar, which doesn't make sense. I'd rather order an additional RCBO to replace the BG RCBO and cover it up then.

I need to make sure that I have have compatible blanking plates for the empty spots since I can't just leave these open once I cover everything up. Do you reckon that new Hager busbar blanks will be compatible with this older CU? Instead I can also put back 3 of the older MCBs, but it seems inappropriate to do this since they would not be in use and would not be behind and RCCB like they were before.

 

[bernardgreen]

This is a bus bar from a type approved consumer unit where the receptible on the approved main switch is not in line with the receptibles in the approved MCBs , I cannot recall which manufacturer.

 

[pcaouolte]

In any case, I'll try to finish the job myself then. I do want to install an entirely new CU once Octopus has fixed the main fuse and installed an isolator. The current consumer unit is like swiss cheese with holes drilled into it at several spots.

Ok, your choice. I'm out., Good luck.

Just be aware that installing a new CU is notifiable to building control. If you use an electrician who is a member of an approved scheme they can deal with the building control aspect for you, which is almost always cheaper than a DIY install of a CU plus the appropriate fees to building control.

 

[SUNRAY]

Ok, your choice. I'm out., Good luck.

Basically where I was with my first post, As I wrote I have exactly the bar he requires which I would have been happy to put in the post FOC but no way am I going to be party to this idiots botching.

I'm actually hoping it started as April 1st prank.

 

[JohnW2]

Bingo!

I was waiting for those comments! Although I was expecting the "type tested" to come from Flameport

... or, perhaps more likely, eric

Kind Reegards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I was hoping that since this forum is for DIYers, this wouldn't happen. But I did notice the trend on other forums.

There are occasions when what someone says, asks or shows us makes it clear that they could not do safely do whatever they are proposing, and most of us would then advise them that they should not be attempting the work. However, beyond that, there is only a very small number of people in this forum who will regularly question the qualifications/competence of an OP in relation to all but the most trivial of electrical tasks. If they effectively don't think that any electrical work should be DIYed (and opinion they have every right to have) then one ha to wonder why they participate in a "DIY Electrics" forum!

I've observed that this questioning of competency/qualifications and recommending to hire a qualified person to do the works is very much a cultural phenomenon. I've lived in the Netherlands for most of my life and it's very common for people to do maintenance on their own consumer unit, to (re-)wire their own homes, or install their own EV chargers. It's super easy to find instructions in Dutch online for replacing your consumer unit.....

There are dramatic differences between countries, both in relation to culture and laws/regulation. In England, there is very little legal regulation/ restriction of who can do electrical work, the opposite extreme being Australia.

Maybe it'd be a good idea to question how productive it is to question people's competency/qualifications.

Indeed, and something I often question. As above, there are times when we really need to advise people against doing certain work but, in general, I think it is not productive at all - in fact all it usually achieves are these length discussions/arguments

After all, it's not like people are dying of electrocution and due to fires all the time in the Netherlands.

Nor in the UK. When I last saw figurs, there were only a couple of dozen deaths per year due to electrocution in domestic settings, and I don't know how many (if any) of them occured whilst doing, or as a consequence of, DIY electrical work. Yetr we don't advise people against driving vehicles or crossing roads.

.... When it genuinely seems like someone might endanger themselves, of course you should advise people to get some help. But more often than not I find the "concerns" people voice are just echos of regulations rather than genuine concerns or attempts to educate and be helpful.

As above, I totally agree.

As I wittnessed when I moved in recently, some people are going to do DIY anyway, regardless of whether it's common or not. And if there's no good information out there to help them, they are going to create dangerous situations. If not on DIY forums, where are people supposed to get advice that educates them on how to do maintenance on their home's electrics?

Exactly.

Apologies for the rant @JohnW2 , this is not aimed at you. In this thread you just seemed like you'd have most sympathy for my perspective.

No problem. Even if it had been directed at me, as you will realise from the above, I'm essentially 'on your side'!

Kind Regards, John