Paris Olympics, Womens Boxing

[Mrs Doubtfyre]

Stop bleating on about legal status.

The law might be changed to state that anyone of height 5'11" should now be considered 6' tall. Doesn't mean it's true ...

The law wouldn't rule that something is anything if it isn't.
We are a civilised society that respects the rule of law.
We don't pick and choose which to obey or apply, and which to ignore.

Although I wonder sometimes.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

The law wouldn't rule that something is anything if it isn't.
We are a civilised society that respects the rule of law.
We don't pick and choose which to obey or apply, and which to ignore.

Although I wonder sometimes.

Yeah, you would think so wouldn't you. However we're entering a sort of emperor's new clothes around much of this.

 

[Mrs Doubtfyre]

Yeah, you would think so wouldn't you. However we're entering a sort of emperor's new clothes around much of this.

How so?
Because it triggers your own attitude to transpeople?

Like others are triggered by 20mph speed limits, or congestion charges, or asylum seekers, or politics, etc.

We all have our own trigger points. But our personal trigger points do not per se mean that the legal situation is wrong. it just means that the legal situation does not conform to your preferred prejudices.

 

[JohnD]

I haven't looked, but your constant claim that a man is a man, and a woman is a woman, (and intimating that nothing shall ever change that) suggests that you believe that the determination of sex at birth is faultless.

Nonsense.

It says nothing of the kind.

 

[Mrs Doubtfyre]

Nonsense.

It says nothing of the kind.

So you do accept that mistakes do occur in determining the sex of a baby at birth.

Can you stop dancing around and tell us:
Do you think mistakes can occur in determining the sex of babies at birth?
It's not a difficult question, unless, for some unfathomable reason, you don't wish to answer.

Edit: You are allowed to confer or to research before answering.

 

[motorbiking]

Are you suggesting trans people exist because there are mistakes sexing the human at birth?

 

[Mrs Doubtfyre]

Are you suggesting trans people exist because there are mistakes sexing the human at birth?

I think your question is irrelevant..
Once we establish that mistakes in sexing are made, then we must accept that there is a genuine need to allow people to transition.
Indeed the medical profession may advise parents to not make decision about gender until the child is older, so that the child has an input into the decision.
That medical advice includes the advice that gender assignment is nor permanent.
In the UK, an "undecided" on the birth cert' is not allowed, and there is only a binary choice.

Once we accept that transitioning exists we should stop the ostracising of them, and treat them as normal members of society, which they are.
It's only pure prejudice driven by Victorian attitudes towards sex that causes the bigotry.

 

[motorbiking]

So are you suggesting that only people wit DSD and an incorrect sex assignment should be allowed to transition if they wish?

This seems reasonable.

 

[Mrs Doubtfyre]

So are you suggesting that only people wit DSD and an incorrect sex assignment should be allowed to transition if they wish?

I made no such suggestion.
I never accepted that DSD should be the only reason to transition.
And in addition many DSD's may not be diagnosed until puberty or even adulthood. By which time the gender might be too well established for the person to make a change.
Indeed some born with DSD may never be diagnosed.

In part, the discrimination shown towards transpeople may affect the decision to not transition.
So once again your assumption is dismissed.

For some data to influence your thoughts: there is, on current estimates, about 30,000 people in UK with DSD. (about .05%)
But there are about 250,000 trans people in UK. (about .5%)
that's an error of about 10 fold.

Of course there may be other simple explanations for the discrepancy.
Current estimates are based on current births and the medical ability at the current time.
But when the 250,000 trans people were born, the medical acknowledgement (and capability) of DSD, and the attitudes of doctors and parents was in its infancy (pardon the pun).
Even now there might not always be 'intersex' medical capability easily available. And some parents might not want it.

 

[motorbiking]

For some data to influence your thoughts: there is, on current estimates, about 30,000 people in UK with DSD. (about .05%)
But there are about 250,000 trans people in UK. (about .5%)
that's an error of about 10 fold.

That is the exact point. 9/10 trans are not "in the wrong body" because someone "made an error" when "assigning" them a sex.

kinda kills your whole argument though.

 

[JohnD]

So you do accept that mistakes do occur in determining the sex of a baby at birth.

Can you stop dancing around and tell us:
Do you think mistakes can occur in determining the sex of babies at birth?
It's not a difficult question, unless, for some unfathomable reason, you don't wish to answer.

Edit: You are allowed to confer or to research before answering.

Sex is a biological fact, determined genetically. A person with male chromosomes is male.

There are small numbers of babies with abnormalities or deformations that may make the appearance untypical. A modern advanced health system has a good chance of identifying and clarifying inconsistencies.

Sex is not determined by writing on a piece of paper, even an Algerian passport.

If the piece of paper is incorrect, it can be corrected.

A person who is biologically male does not become female by writing on a piece of paper.

 

[JohnD]

The law wouldn't rule that something is anything if it isn't.

Rwanda is a safe country.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Second trans woman wins against an actual woman. What a complete farce and a disgrace to the Olympics. Shame on all those who authorised this.

Fresh female boxing controversy as fighter defeats opponent

Sitora Turdibekova, 22, refused to shake hands with controversial opponent Lin Yu-Ting in a move which was being as a protest against the Taipei's involvement.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Mrs Doubtfyre]

Sex is a biological fact, determined genetically. A person with male chromosomes is male.

Except it's not that simple

Have some cells with female chromosomes (XX) and some with male (XY). (Typically, all girls' cells have XX chromosomes, and all boys' cells have XY ones.)
Mixed gonadal dysgenesis (MGD): This condition is caused by a chromosomal difference (mosaic), in which some chromosomes are XY (male), and some are XO – meaning they are missing a second sex chromosome.
Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS): People with AIS are genetically male (meaning they have XY chromosomes), but their bodies are resistant to sex hormones for male development. This causes the development of genitals that are either completely or partially female. A child with complete AIS is genetically male but looks like a girl. (This condition is usually not discovered until later).

What does intersex look like?

Find out what it means to have an intersex baby and how to decide what's right for your intersex child.

www.babycenter.com

There are small numbers of babies with abnormalities or deformations that may make the appearance untypical.

At last an acceptance that mistakes in sexing babies is accepted by you.

A modern advanced health system has a good chance of identifying and clarifying inconsistencies.

Except sometimes there aren't.

Unfortunately, not all hospitals have DSD teams. If your hospital doesn't offer this kind of specialized treatment, or if you're not satisfied with the resources it provides, seek out a DSD specialty care center that fits your needs. It's important to find experienced and supportive healthcare providers to help you determine the best path forward for your child, including how (or if) to assign a gender to your child.

What does intersex look like?

Find out what it means to have an intersex baby and how to decide what's right for your intersex child.

www.babycenter.com

And there probably wasn't in Algeria a few years ago.

Sex is not determined by writing on a piece of paper,

But Gender is. And Gender is not a permanent status.

If the piece of paper is incorrect, it can be corrected.

Yes, hence the gender reassignment laws.

If the assignment of sex was wrong and is later diagnosed as a mistake, it is not always advisable or desirable to correct it.
Many doctors advise against it in some cases.. And the gender can be reassigned.

A person who is biologically male does not become female by writing on a piece of paper.

A man that appeared to be male at birth might in fact be a woman, and vice versa.
Man and woman are genders as well as sexes.
A man can become a woman, and vice versa.

But the fact that you have now started to add the word 'biological' in your silly dog whistle phrases means we are making progress, from your earlier versions of "a man is not a woman".
It means that you are beginning to accept that 'man' and 'woman' are both sexes and genders.

 

[JonathanM]

Second trans woman wins against an actual woman.

You could at least try to use the correct terminology.

Transgender refers to a situation in which a person feels that the gender assigned to that person at birth (boy or girl) was not the right one for him or her. DSD is about physical sex development (how a person's body formed), not about gender identity (who a person feels himself or herself to be).